Slamming my head into a brick wall: Talking with Texas Conservatives
I very recently had a “discussion” with two conservatives concerning their support of Texas Governor, R
ick Perry. I wouldn’t quite call it a discussion, as much as I would say that I made some very good points, and the other two guys largely rambled and managed to call me a Liberal. Hardly the case.
Before I get started with this little back and forth, I would like to say something about conservatives. I know full well you’re not all idiots and that there is just a large faction of you that seems to run loose and control the conservative agenda. I know many conservatives that are good respectable people that have much respect for the right of the individual, its just a shame that there aren’t more of them.
I began by mentioning on a local politicians Facebook status update that I hoped he didn’t hold to the same politics as Rick Perry. Of course soon after, there would be a Perry supporter along.
Todd: Tex, I hope you do hold to the same politics Rick Perry does. All these boneheads out here that think the “other” person running on the republican ticket is a conservative. HA!
So it begins by this guy believing I’m a supporter of Hutchinson, which is far from the case.
Me: I wouldn’t waste my vote on Rick Perry or Kay Bailey Hutchinson. Hutchinson is a hack from DC that has no business being a governor. Perry, damn, don’t get me started about Perry. From his messing with the highway system and trying to enslave our transportation to foreign companies while displacing residents for his greed, to poor border security, no support for medical marijuana legalization, and saying that he supports a school voucher system, but then does absolutely nothing about it. Those are just a few of the issues. Rick Perry is wanting a third term when he hasn’t even produced in his first two and a half terms.
It also seems that he has put a few idiots in charge of our education system now as well. They want to take Neil Armstrong out of our history books. Do you know how outrageous that is? They also are wanting to bring more religion into public schools. Separation of church and state is the only way to ensure that religion is not infringed or inflicted upon.
I must have struck a nerve with this next guy, because he went into rant mode immediately. Didn’t address any of my points.
Bruce: There is no Separation of Church and State in the U.S. Constitution. The words do not exist there. It is a 20th Century creation of the Supreme Court and the ACLU and athiests trying to rid the country of Christians. 9 out of 10 jobs in the country were created in Texas last year and we have a $9 Billion surplus while other big states are bankrupt. More Fortune 500 companies are now in TX than any other state. I’m voting for Perry. It is the liberals who are trying to take any mention of Christianity out of history books and only mention Muslims and Hindus. Nice try but the facts do not bear out your ramblings.
So now I’m the one that is rambling, according to this guy. I decided to take a somewhat nice approach with my next reply.
All of my points are facts, ignore them if you wish to to not see anything accomplished in Texas and want to blindly vote for Perry. I’m sorry to hear that you agree with them removing Neil Armstrong from the history books.
I don’t dispute Governor Perry’s fiscal and business track record. They are fairly clean and its easy to see that Texas has … Read Morethe best economy out of the entire US. Notice I took no dispute with the governor on this matter.
Whether the US Constitution mentioned anything or not is irrelevant, as we are dealing with a state issue here. The separation of church and state is a good idea on behalf of everyone. I don’t know what religion you are sir, but I am sure that you would be upset if another religion were to be forced upon you, I would expect no one to want another’s religion forced upon them. The separation of church and state guarantees that you have the right to practice your religion, and not have the public school teach your children a religion that you do not agree with.
I never heard back from this guy, which is a shame because I was interested in seeing if he was able to wise up at all. Likely not, but hey, there’s always a chance. The first guy did come back to say a few more things though.
Todd: I agree with you Bruce. Obviously Stephen is a liberal, as he is doing what ALL the rest of the mindless sheep do…Focusing on one point (Neil Armstrong) and not addressing the bigger picture. As a proud American, I follow what our founding fathers believed. They believed in God and amended the Constitution to state: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Does it state there shall be a separation of Church and State? NO! Congress cannot declare a state sponsored religion as England did. Just to show what a lib you are, Stephen, you stated the US Constitution was irrelevant. Are you that stupid?
Alright, now this guy has come back to pick up the rambling where the other left off. I didn’t keep my cool too long on this one. I knew I was really going to go nowhere with these people. They are deluded and have already firmly committed themselves to a stance that couldn’t be changed by any fact. So I fired back.
Me: I see you didn’t take the time to fully read anything I said, or address any of my legitimate points. You’re just talking heads that are going to mindlessly support someone that hasn’t accomplished anything for our state. Your ramblings make a sane person’s head spin.
Its apparent you aren’t interested in discussing real politics here and are so hard headed you can’t concede of anything, even when the evidence stares you in the face.
If you took the time to check, btw. You would notice I’m not a liberal, and never have been a supporter of liberal ideology. I used to be a Republican, but I was able to see the light. I’m a Libertarian, and don’t be surprised when the Libertarian Party of Texas sweeps over once easily held Republican seats in the future while Republicans wallow in dated ideas and practices.
Yeah, I pitched for the Libertarian Party there, even though I am not an actual paid member of it. Its true you know, the Republicans are driving their politics so far away from the mainstream that they are eventually going to give Libertarians a good shot at their holdings of power. The Libertarian Party of Texas only needs a little work before it becomes very viable. I guess they’re just too egotistical and blind to see this though. His reply?
Todd: Yes, Stephen, I read your info. Do you know what the Libertarian Party stands for? Obviously not! Fiscally conservative, Socially liberal. Yes, LIBERAL. Bruce did address your comments WITH FACTS. You are the one that ignored the facts. Fact is…Perry did make a mistake with the Trans Texas Corridor. His concept started out to be a good one, but it snowballed with the bureaucracy. When it finally got out of hand and he was listening to his supporters, he quickly reversed it and killed it. Every Governor we’ve had has stayed in the walls of the ivory tower. It is when one gets out and listens to the people that they are effective.
Whoa, now I’m a Liberal because I point out facts about Perry’s follies and lack of accomplishments as governor. I highly doubt he read any of my readily available profile information and like many others, just continued with his rant in ignorance. What I really find funny here though is Todd’s attempt to make a bold faced lie and misrepresentation about the Libertarian Party, just to make me look bad.
Do you know what the Libertarian Party stands for? Obviously not! Fiscally conservative, Socially liberal. Yes, LIBERAL.
So he has taken the LPT slogan and has edited it to suit his own needs. The actual slogan says, “Fically Conservative, Socially Tolerant.” I’ll let my next and final reply say the rest.
Me: Bruce addressed none of my facts, none at all. You addressed none of them either. I understand fully what the Libertarians stand for. Fiscal Responsibility, Socially TOLERANT. Says nothing about being liberal there. If you think giving a person the right to do as they please so long as they are harming no one else is wrong, then you are not a supporter of freedom and deserve none yourself.
Perry has made many mistakes, its good to see you have admitted one of them. Lets hear the rest now.
If you haven’t figured it out by now, I’m just wasting my time with these people. After my last reply though, I haven’t heard back from either of them. It wasn’t a very long “discussion”, but I felt that it adequately showed the ignorance of many conservatives. Close-minded, hateful people that desire freedom for themselves and no one else. If you cannot grant another person the right to do as they choose so long as they harm no other, then you do not deserve the right either. At least the guy was able to admit one fault with Perry, lets hope he comes to his senses and realizes the others as well. I highly doubt it though.
As it stands right now, I have not thrown my support behind a candidate. I definitely do know that I won’t be supporting Governor Perry. If you’re a fellow Texan, I hope you consider someone other than Governor Perry as well. He has been an inefficient governor in many areas, and keeping a good economy isn’t enough to ask for a third term. Our border issues are mounting, we have one of the most lacking education systems in the US, the highway system isn’t doing well, and as I’m sure many homeowners know, property taxes have steadily been on the rise. How free are we when we can’t even outright own our own land without having to pay the government for the priviledge of keeping it?
Those are only a few of the issues that we face. Governor Perry refuses to even consider that legalizing marijuana would be a boon to Texans. It would help us fight the drug cartels, decrease our prison population, and add a thriving new sector to our economy. He talks a big game about not letting the federal government push us around, but has he delivered? He seems to talk a lot of big game, but if you look back on his two and a half terms, you’ll see that he hasn’t accomplished much, especially in the way of social issues. He only garnered 39% of the electoral vote in the 2006 election, not even a clear majority.
Governor Perry is stuck in the past and his services in Texas are no longer needed.
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Tags: conservative, election, freedom, governor, ignorance, liberal, libertarian, liberty, Politics, republican, Rick Perry, Texas
Friday, October 9th, 2009 at 1:24 pm • Activism, Editor's Picks, Elections, Politics, State Issues • RSS 2.0 feed
Interesting conversations there. I wonder if your conversationalists are aware that neither God nor the Air Force nor marriage nor dozens of other things that we take for granted as part of our government and daily lives are anywhere to be found in the Constitution either?
The First Amendment has two religion-related clauses: The Establishment Clause (Freedom from Religion) and the Free Exercise Clause (Freedom of Religion).
Christian revisionists like to make-believe that there is only one religion-related clause, but it doesn’t even take a close reading to see that there are TWO. If there are two clauses, then each must have a purpose. And by legal theory and tradition, you were right on the mark with your arguments to them. Well done. Keep up the work. It takes a lot to protect us from people who would like to take away our liberties.
Stephen, thanks for commenting on my old blog (Texas Conservative) and hope you find your way to the new one at http://theriverrocks.blogspot.com.
A few thoughts on your post…
First I think the liberal-conservative construct is largely a way for busy (or maybe lazy) people to make political choices without having to think about their principles. It is much easier to assign all politicians, ideas, policies, etc. to one or the other category (or possibly some shade in-between) than to REALLY think about what you believe in. If one must have a scale, the only logical one is a scale with anarchist libertarian on one end, and totalitarian statism on the other. But even that has problems, IMO.
As for government schools, I see them as an affront to our liberty and would like to see state funding withdrawn. I think many Old Right conservatives agree in principle, but the pragmatic side of them sees that battle is not winnable anytime soon. I tend to agree with them that government schools, if we are going to have them, should have the option of teaching religious based classes. I believe this simply because the state is coercively taking my money (property taxes) and forcing me to consume a product which I would not otherwise consume (government indoctrination of my kids). Their real ERROR is not recognizing that property-tax-paying athiests have the same concern. As do property-tax-paying Communists, socialists, agnostsics, libertarians, fascists, etc.
I guess what I’m saying is that the real problem is that anytime the government uses force to compel individuals to act contrary to their own values there is going to be friction, anger, bitterness, etc. Unfortunately that often manifests itself as individuals arguing with one another, when they (we) should instead be directing our anger at the state itself for foisting this immoral system on us in the first place.
Finally, Rick Perry is not a good governor. People have short memories though, and their heuristic-based system of making decisions leads to many good people making emotional decisions. I mean look at Perry…he has nice hair, dresses well, talks with a drawl, and mentioned secession. So he MUST be a good guy…right?
Like your blog…I will be back! Regards…AL
Allen, I’m glad you left a link to your new blog, will definitely be checking it out soon. You seem to be a very level headed person, and I can definitely respect that.
I agree, its a lot easier to lump people into two groups and have them bicker back and forth, keeping their mind off their common “enemy”, oppressive government. People realize that what the government does is wrong only when their side isn’t in power, and tend to quickly forget about what the government can and has done once their own side is back in power. This is easy because it allows for laziness, and people like it when they can feel like they’re participating in the system but not actually doing or learning anything. It is all one big scale between complete anarchist libertarian and complete totalitarian statist, and I really don’t believe there are many that fall on either edge, mostly in the middle. People also fail to realize where on this scale they are, they likely don’t even think about it. The biggest problem though is the two parties are very much alike and don’t really hold to most of their principles except the ones that only the more hardcore care about.
I support transitioning to a private school system, it would be better over the long run and we would go back to the way we originally taught our children. It will be hard to do this, but it can be done. Public schools go against the foundation of liberty because there is very little choice in the matter, especially for poorer people. I personally don’t believe we should be holding religious classes at school, even if they are optional classes. As you saw earlier, I’m a firm believer in the separation of church and state, and since the public school is part of the state, I have to decline support for anything being religiously oriented. That’s not to say that religion should be left out of history books, because it has played many roles in the world and this country. It is history, and to deny it a spot in the history books would be wrong. I do have a problem with what these people are proposing to do to the Texas history books though. They are injecting religion into government when it wasn’t actually ever there and want to teach this as fact in history when it simply isn’t true.
I support a school voucher system, I believe its the best way to accomplish the main objectives we would like to achieve. That being increased competition, consumer choice, and a bigger private school sector. A friend of my notes a conflict with my decision though. Some private schools are religious, and he argues that allowing these schools to use the vouchers would be against the separation of church and state. I disagree since parents are getting exactly what they want and no one is being forced to go to a particular school. It would be a basic, non-discriminatory voucher that can be re-deemed at any public or private school.
I’m glad to see that you share my sentiment for Rick Perry. People like him because he portrays himself as a “good ole boy” and talks a big game. He even got some people fired up when he mentioned secession, as if he had the guts to do it anyways. He plays to the crowd, which sounds very familiar considering other politicians we have in office right now. People make many emotional decisions instead of making rational decisions, and politicians like Perry know this, so they play to those weaknesses.
I submit that the real question you should be asking yourself is: why does the SBOE get to control textbooks for ALL children in the state of Texas? Instead of arguing with each other about what one-size-fits-all solution is the best one, we should be trying to get rid of one-size-fits-all solutions, particularly when that “solution” is a vile threat to individual liberty.
With that in mind, I find it difficult to fault the parents who want their children to learn a Christian worldview (or an atheist, agnostic, Jewish, etc.) trying to change the system to meet their needs. Most of these people are rational people who are being forced to act contrary to their own values and judgment. This system has been forced on them through coercion and government force.
There are a few people (I think it’s a small minority of the citizens…probably a majority of the politicians though) that have sinister motives – i.e. forcing a particular religion or value system on ALL children. Unfortunately it is difficult to tell these snakes from the honest folks that just want the best for their children.
A proper government would defend the rights of all these individuals to act in their own self-interest and according to their own judgment and values. It would not result in bickering between “America-hating liberals” and “right wing extremist conservatives” because everybody would get what they want (well, except for the statists that want to use the government to violate our liberty and property rights).
I like vouchers too, but only as a transition to a fully-privatized school system. A voucher system would not be perfect, but would at least allow creative entrepreneurs to come up with better methods of education that the one that we have been suffering with for over 150 years.